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different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:26 pm
by bassfanatic
hi all just wondering ive just designed a new segmented bait for myself which i hoped that would wiggle but it doesnt really do what i wanted ,the question im asking is that im using very soft plastic but hardening up could it get te action i so desired

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:48 pm
by RhettWheeler
Let’s see some pics of the design- could be too thick in some of the joints or not tapered enough

But just for kicks- id say pour the first segment with zero softener and the back segment with softened plastic and see if that helps

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:15 pm
by aka anglinarcher
I agree, seeing a pic would help.

When water streams over the front of the obstruction (lure) it creates alternating vortex on each side. That is what creates the wiggle you see in lures like Mr. Wiggly, Magic Swimmer, etc. You can also search not only Vortex but Hydrodynamic flutter. For this flutter or wiggle to be largest, you want a larger front surface, usually tapering to a thinner back.

The segments usually add flexibility but do not actually add to the vortex. Normally, the more flexibility, the larger the front (but not angular or squared off), the more the taper of the body, the more the wiggle. The subject of Vortex or Hydrodynamic flutter can take volumes to explain complain completely, but for our purposes, I hope I have given enough to start.

An edit, I am providing a link to some I made several years ago. They swim great, so you don't need to overdo the larger front, taper, etc. It is a Microsoft Onedrive link, so you will be prompted to sign into onedrive.

https://1drv.ms/i/s!ArO0ha903rntnXG0aUuW81Qb3aER

Good luck on your design, but very soft probably gave you the best shot on your current design.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:09 am
by bassfanatic
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipM ... 6LSyFfMwMp

now this is a very first quick pour and the lure is straight was cleaned up before testing

now it is an injection mould so pouring 2 types of plastic is difficult and i have cleaned up the mould since this pour but guys if you cant see the above image how do i add an attachment to this post

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:16 pm
by aka anglinarcher
The pics don't show for me. I don't know the google cloud system so maybe Caja will come on and help us out.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:25 pm
by Caja
On google have to turn on link sharing. All other photos turn off link sharing keep public from seeing

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:04 pm
by bassfanatic

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:44 pm
by aka anglinarcher
OK, this will help. The easiest solution to that design is to add a couple more joints up front. You have equally spaced joints at the rear, add two more at the same spacing going forward.

The vortex(s) that form up front are smaller on this design due to the smaller front profile. As they roll down the sides they are destroyed if they come against too much resistance. They then reform due to friction, in this case at the tail, but they are smaller. The faster a lure is moved through the water, the more friction, the more vortex. This why it works at faster speeds but not slower speeds.

You should be able to test this by using a razor knife and cutting some extra joints into the design as suggested.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:46 pm
by Caja
Add a mini Huddleston type wedge tail for cold water or mini y shape tail and that should slow water at the end of lure to cause s-swim action'

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:12 pm
by aka anglinarcher
There is a difference in the action from a tail driven action, from a paddle or wedge shaped tail added. and a swimming bait, driven from a front vortex. Caja is right, you can add the wedge or paddle tail and it will work. In fact, the joints will not be necessary with that profile.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:14 pm
by bassfanatic
https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP ... zVEPDHR4pk


this is my new attempt im thinking this shouls work better

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:45 pm
by aka anglinarcher
Need to turn on link sharing for the latest photo.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:21 pm
by bassfanatic
should be ok

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:59 pm
by RhettWheeler
Jim- the joints look a little too thick to me. I’d thin them quite a bit more on a design that small. Probably looks really cool on twitches though!

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:16 pm
by bassfanatic
im afraid the master will crack if i thin them down more ,they are very thin as it is but you think i will get some movement in that,like that lure is about 6/7 inches in lenght

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:48 am
by RhettWheeler
Pour a superplastic casting and then thin them out! Thatll solve the cracking issue. The super plastic is good for carving sanding etc

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:05 pm
by aka anglinarcher
bassfanatic wrote:
>
> https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipP ... zVEPDHR4pk
>
>
> this is my new attempt im thinking this shouls work better

I still can't see the latest one. Wish I could.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:09 pm
by aka anglinarcher
bassfanatic wrote:
> im afraid the master will crack if i thin them down more ,they are very
> thin as it is but you think i will get some movement in that,like that lure
> is about 6/7 inches in lenght

Sometimes scale is hard to see in pictures. I find that having 1/3 the thickness of the bait left when you make your hinge/joint works well. Too little and there is not enough to hold up but too much and you don't benefit from increased flexibility.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:49 pm
by bassfanatic
actually had to design a new one but i ws going to make a silicone mold from the master or has anyone any ideas the links between the segments are thinner than 1/3rd of segments as i didnt see the reply in time heres the photo odf the new design do you think it will wiggle like i want it too i need it to wiggle a little bit on a slow retrieve,the lure is also tapered

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipM ... dpdklYa3FR

whats superplastic ive never heard of that before as vac 50 for me is very expensive to make a bad mold as i have to pay transport and custom costs on importing it to ireland so i kinda need to get it right
i know failure is part and parcel and ive had my fair share of it but it adds to the fun and satisfaction when you do get it right

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:59 pm
by aka anglinarcher
For that design, unless you are planning on making lots and lots, you don't need VacMaster 50. You could even make this from a one piece mold out of HS2 or HS3.

I am convinced that the design you have now will wiggle well. While I would prefer a thicker joint/hinge, I think it will still be ok, unless you get a lot of tail tuggers.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:45 pm
by bassfanatic
well now my problem is which mould to make was thinking of coating the master in vaseline and making a 2 piece injection mould or a one piece rtv silicone mold which i havent made in a while any advice on what to hold up the master in a silcone mold even if i pour one of them can use that for the vac if i choose to make one afraid of master breaking in the vac 50 mould has happened to me before was a disaster also because if the thin segments i was thinking wouidnt they cool faster the an the rest so if i have a pour hole i might get an incomplete lure

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:10 pm
by aka anglinarcher
I have always made a master out of Alumilite White when I made my VacMaster 50 molds. I either coat the master with several coats of UMR or petroleum jelly because, as you have suggested,with NO FLEX, the VacMaster 50 is not forgiving of hard masters. Also, any undercut and it is stuck. There is enough flex in the Alumilite White that I can pry it out, but if no undercuts, and well coated, it normally comes out ok.

Two piece molds and injection is great. Of course, with $50 US cost for a new injector, I would look for other options if I did not have one already.

Still, there is no self life on the VacMaster 50 mold, it can still be making lures for you 50 years from now, no matter how many you make.

As for the Silicone molds, they do have a shelf life, but I got some pure silicone oil that I brush on the mold when I am done pouring and putting it away for long term storage. I have some of those molds that are just fine that are almost 10 years old and have poured many many lures.

If you do a Silicone one piece mold, what you can do is pour the mold at one time. I suspend the master in the mold box and pour the mold at one time. I then take a sharp exacto knife (razor knife) and cut a single slit down the top. I remove the master and now I can pour either Alumilite White or Plastisol into it. I fill mold with material, let it close, rubber band it to close it tight, then let it cure/cool. When I remove it I have just thin flashing I can pull off easy and I am done.

Just some ideas for you to consider. If I had an injector, I would make a Silicone one piece mold, make a resin master, then make a permanent VacMaster 50 mold.

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:22 pm
by bassfanatic
made the mould out of vac 50 as i have no aluminum white 95% happy with it just need to repair a little nick in it but over all im very happy will keep you posted on the lure action

Re: different actions of plastic

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 5:18 pm
by aka anglinarcher
I look forward to seeing more.