hybrid fly/lures

Questions about Making Your Own Lures

hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:32 am

Watched the wolf fly fishing episode with the foam poppers. That river was like some of the rivers/creeks i have fished in the southeast for largemouth, spotted, smallmouth, redeye, and shoal bass. I would like to make a walk the dog style fly/lure works in fast water. Some of the walk the dog flies on the market do not walk that great in heavy current, they dive and lose there action. Would like to mold and cast some flies in the 4 to 6" range. A subsurface glide fly would be epic too. I have most all the make lure products except the foams. Which foams do recommend and can you dust the molds for color options? I have learned so much over the last couple years on the website and shows thanks.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby aka anglinarcher » Tue Jul 08, 2014 6:16 pm

A lot of great questions, and I am sure Larry and Mike will add their superior knowledge to the thread, but I can comment some.

First, the Alumifoam floats like cedar wood, so it should do what you need. It is also as tough as a rock. Larry did a video showing how tough it is and I posted one on YouTube and I showed how hard it was to bust it with a hammer. That would be my suggestion.

Second, yes, you can dust the mold to provide color. When you remove the foam from the mold it will have a smooth skin that takes dust very well.

Third, if you are going to make a subsurface glider, it will require every bit as much extra weight as a wood version would.

Forth, I love the idea of a glider fly, but Larry has observed that adding feather hackles to the tail hooks on his wide glides reduced the action...... a fact I have observed also. I cut the hackle off the wide glides I buy. Keep in mind that gliders need momentum (weight and speed) to keep them moving and low resistance to keep from stopping the forward motion too soon. Keep your flies lean and mean on your gliders.

Fifth, casting flies in the 4 to 6 inch range should be super easy.

Last, I love your idea. PLEASE post pictures when you get some done.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Mike - Alumilite » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:54 pm

Alumifoam is the one I'd recommend as Anglin mentioned. Its crazy hard, durable, strong, and light.

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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Wed Jul 09, 2014 8:17 am

Thanks, post some photos in week or two.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby dahlberg » Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:06 pm

Far be it from me to rain on the parade, but ....
The single most important element in any "fly" is that you are able to cast it with a fly rod. Moreover, it should be comfortable and pleasant to cast if possible.
The two factors that dictate whether or not a fly is actually "castable" is wind resistance and weight. The design you are attempting is in my opinion simply impossible to accomplish.
But, I wish you good luck in your efforts and I hope you are able to prove me wrong!
best
L
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:43 pm

Make lure facebook has a photo of the hybrid fly idea.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby aka anglinarcher » Wed Jul 09, 2014 9:57 pm

For those of us that are not on Face Book, can you post it on the Makelure.com site in the Photos?
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Thu Jul 10, 2014 4:59 am

Tried to upload to make lure photos, contact adm.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:42 am

Larry, is probably right. It will take a lot tinkering with different materials and goop. It the glider fly does work i just make another popper, wakeb ait or mini whopper popper. Great products good fishing caja.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Mon Jul 14, 2014 12:54 pm

THE AKA BIG DOG is alive. Casts easy 80-100ft. Big dog is 7" total length. I was surprised by the action however much fly line you strip how far it glides/walks the dog. Gliding easy 5 feet both directions. Tinker with fly line and leaders might glide even better. Tested with 10wt. Tfo hawgleg with 330grain line, leader 8 feet last 4 ft 15lb mono big game. The hunt for BIG DOG is on make lure facebook page. Its called the big dog because of the este grande fibers and looks like a hotdog.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby aka anglinarcher » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:55 pm

It did not show up on Make Lure photo site yet, but I suspect it will soon enough. Look forward to seeing it.

Mike, if you see it on Facebook, can you copy it and post it. I DON'T want to ever have a facebook account.

Thanks,
Steve
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Mon Feb 16, 2015 12:47 pm

Here is video of big dog fly prototype testing. Was using 8' tfo 10 weight with cheap 10 weight line.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby aka anglinarcher » Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:25 pm

Caja, link did not come through that I can see.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:23 pm

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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby aka anglinarcher » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:12 pm

Interesting casting with the fly/lure. It looks like it is a bit difficult to cast, but once you got the timing down it seem to work just fine. I can see my 10 weight Switch Rod handling it well enough.

Too bad you were working in moving water. It seem to prevent the glide effect, but fly/lure looked like a great slider. I only wish that you had caught one...... I bet this would be an awesome Redfish fly as well as a big bass or pike fly.

It seems like you are working up something with potential.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Mon Feb 16, 2015 7:02 pm

I not a fly casting expert and i had the tail turned down in that video. Hopefully get more gliding action with tail bent up and uv alumi-uv coated. Weights less than .25 oz
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby dahlberg » Wed Feb 18, 2015 10:13 am

Hi All,
This is a great thread. Thanks for sending the video. It really clarifies what the issues are and is a perfect place to begin outlining the challenges of creating flies of this type.
Remember, number one (in my book anyway) is that the fly is actually able to be cast comfortably, and not be smacking the water on the forward and back cast! Also be able to shoot it under a tree if needed!
In order for that to happen two things must be addressed, wind resistance and over all weight of the fly. Of the two, overall weight is most likely the biggest enemy with wind resistance a close second.
In order to emphasize how critical the weight component is I'm listing the actual grain weights of various fly lines. Hopefully this will help clarify the physical dynamic limitations in regards to weight! As you can see, adding a quarter of an ounce increases the load weight a full 4 sizes; from an 8 to a 12. To a fly angler adding a quarter or even an eighth of an ounce is HUGE! Not to mention that the better caster you are (high line speed/tight loop) the bigger the problem and irritation the weight becomes.
In normal casting, the weight of the lure loads the rod, the rod casts the lure and the lure pull the line out with it. In fly casting the weight of the line loads the rod, the rod casts the line and the line pulls the lure along with it.
So, the line must be heavy enough (develop enough momemtum) to overcome the wind resistance of the fly. The fly must be light enough not to overload the system or create so much energy when it changes direction that it becomes impossible to control.
(437.5g/0z)
4=120g= 1/20th oz
5=140g
6=165g
7=185
8=210g=.48 oz
9=350
10=280g=,64 oz
12=380gr=.86 oz
Hope this helps in the future planning and design of your flies!
best
L
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Wed Feb 18, 2015 12:40 pm

Thks Larry for the info. Had a few more flies made up tried same tfo 10 weight rod with 330 grain line and 40lb- 2', 25lb -2', and 20lb-2' leader. I did some sanding and trimming on the fly and got it down to 5.8grams, large bass popper weights 2.3grams. It casted much better and did not overload the rod. I had a 5/0 trokar flippin hood in that fly so should be able to lose another gram or two with lighter wire hook. When this polar vortex leaves the southeast will do another video, couple warm days might catch some fish on the big dog. If it was easy anybody could do this. I saw the episode on trout fishing in Canada few years ago and watch you use sinking line to suspend rat fly or Dahlberg Diver to catch big trout. The sinking line would create more the momentum for gliding.?
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:08 pm

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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby dahlberg » Wed Feb 18, 2015 3:18 pm

Ah Ha! You've created a slider! The g of course means grains. a fly that weights even 5 grams is heavy, since it equals 77 grains. 4=61g.7,3=46g. It seems if you can keep the fly in the range of not being heavier than the jump in weight to the next size larger rod and line it is optimum. But, in all cases lighter is better than heavier when it comes to casting. The hook really is an excellent choice. I like the stiffness and shank length. the young musky fly guy I fished with in Virginia a few week back was using them as well.
The only thing that will help true glide, i.e. the lure moving forward without being pulled, is to give the lure slack after it's been put in motion. It's likely some wild things could be accomplished slashing furiously between jerks while using a 9 or 10 foot fly rod!
One of the problems in the overall design of a fly which relates to weight is that in order for something to glide in the water it needs to have specific gravity that's close to that of water. For a lure to walk the dog it needs to be tail weighted. I break walk the dog into three types, "slappers" which are long, slim and heavily tail weighted and may actually stand vertical in the water; "zig zaggers", which is what a traditional zara is to me, and third "gliders" which can, if worked right, zig zag eight feet or more under ideal conditions. When the lure changes direction it might turn within a degree or two of 180 degrees.
Good luck, and keep trying and keep us posted on your progress!
best
Le
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Wed Feb 18, 2015 11:35 pm

The Big Dog Fly has been pumping some iron, he put on some muscle and weight 8.0 grams at 4.5 inches now. Have to get him between 5-6 grams tomorrow.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BzTI6ZE ... cslist_api
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:03 am

Went bassmaster classic expo and got to talk to mudhole tackle experts about MHX rods and fly line grains. I think I can now make a rod for fly casting 750 grain line that is light. Larry you are light years ahead with knowledge and wisdom in tackle fishing industry. West coast swim bait anglers are skipping 2-5 oz plastic swim baits under and threw trees, docks, 30-60' skipping with 80lb braid with 25 lb mono leaders. I have experimented with throwing spro 8" hard bait bzz threw mountain laurel bushes and willow bushes it is more weed less that you think that bait is so heavy it knocks the limbs out of the way and jumps back over the limbs on the way back out deep water next to is key for bites,and knocking the bugs in the water helps start fish feeding in those areas. Angling is evolving so fast with social media, science, tournament tactics, rods, lines. I plan to take 8' medheavy swim bait rod blank 1-4 ounces rated outfit with fly tackle using rescue tape temporarily to test different grain fly line from 400-750 grains. Is this effort worth trying$? I am big guy 220 weight I played college baseball, one of the best hitters in school history and lead country in doubles, In my prime I could bench press 450'lbs swatt 800lbs and dead lift 500 lbs. I can do about 2/3ths of that now at 40 years old and my hand eye is still coordination is still sharp. Was a baseball player that also like to fish. I always looked up and respected wise people like Ted Williams and you.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Sun Mar 01, 2015 3:44 pm

Still working on hybrid lure/fly and hybrid rod fly combo. Tested 7'11" Shimano Crucial Swimbait casting rod rated for 3-5 oz lures with Fly reel and 330 grain line. It actually shoots line better than my TFO hawgleg 10 weight.
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby lilpdriverrat » Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:00 pm

It's great to see you are still tinkering with lures. I know exactly where those videos are shot...haven't been there in years! We need to hit the water soon!
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Re: hybrid fly/lures

Postby Caja » Fri Mar 06, 2015 10:46 pm

Lilpdriverrat, hope to see you soon. Hope your are Still tinkering with rods. I am working on building a couple different rods. I made some good progress on couple of lures in the last two months. Just waiting on water to clear up and warm up, see you on the water
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