Fly Fishing with large flies at a distance?

[aka anglinarcher]

Larry,

I know that the show has not even aired yet, still, I am on pins and needles waiting to DVD the Wolf Fly Fish episode.

This got me thinking, you are known for fishing for big fish, with whatever it takes, but a lot of people do not know that you are a big fly fishing guy as well. Your Dahlberg Diver is a prime example. And it is what you know and do with these big flies that got me thinking.

Sure, you had to use a different fly line in the hot jungle then I would in the colder fresh water in North America, but..................... What fly lines do you prefer to cast these large, often wind resistant, flies, like poppers, divers, frogs, streamers, etc., at distance?

For anyone who might be willing/able to offer suggestions, I am looking at tossing 2 3XL through 2/0 3XL, at long distances. I will be using floating, slow sinking, and full sinking as time goes on. What do you suggest? I use to make my own shooting heads, but it seams that it is getting harder and harder to find the material to make them now, and with all the fly lines on the market, there should be something that perfectly suits the need.

[ajelstein]

Hi aka, I am interested to hear what Larry suggests but in the meen time here are my thoughts.

For the fly sizes and types you specified I would use gear in the 6-8 or 9wt range...depending on both fly size and fish species targeted. As for lines, for floating I am very pleased with the Scientific Anglers Shark Skin weight forward (makes throwing the whole fly line pretty easy even in a 3 or 4 weight); for intermediate and sinking, the Airflo depthfinder and shooting heads are a good choice.

Your leader will be equally important in casting these hooked parachutes successfully, I like to build my own using Maxima Chameleon hard mono for the leader body. Its important that the leader is stiff enough to turn over those bushy flies properly. For excellent information on leader design, take a look at http://www.garyborger.com/category/equipment/leaders/, most of the content is focused on trout fishing presentations but I am sure (from reading your many previous postes) that you will have no problem applying the concepts to your particular situation. There is a better discussion of leader design in Borger's book titled Presentation...if you can find a copy, as I believe it is out of print.

Best regards,

Andy

[dahlberg]

Hi A
Good questions.
First, skip the xl hooks, you don't need them and large flies tied on the cast like crap. The better caster you are the crappier they cast because wind resistance is directly proportional to speed.
Secondly, with large flies such as this the leader has nothing to do with turning over the fly. The fly's momentum is what pulls the leader over. Yes, you may have read otherwise, but that other wise is simply mistaken. The most important issue is where your butt section connects to the line. It need to be uniformly stiff so it doesn't hinge.

You want a stiff, slippery line. I personally HATE the sharkskin lines. I am a high line speed, tight loop type caster who's been double hauling for around 55 years and the Sharkskin lines develop so much friction when I haul with 60 feet of line in the air it feels like the guides are tearing off and the squeaking scratching noise is unbearable. In my book total junk for fishing lines heavier than #6.

For bass bugs etc I use 7 thru 10 lines, and hooks from size 2 up to about 4/0. I can cast the 7" large mega divers I tie with deer hair 90+ feet with a seven weight, but need to aerialize 50 or 60 feet to do it. In most cases going up a line or two is a good idea.
When using sinking lines I'd almost always go with a #10 simply because it sinks so much faster than a 7 or 8 does.

And, Aj, you can have Gary Borger, who happens to be an old friend and imo an excellent caster and angler, call me and I'd be happy to explain the error in his book regarding leaders kicking over bass bugs.

best
L

[aka anglinarcher]

Thanks Larry and Andy,

You have given me something to think about.

I can cast 80 or 90 feet with my 6wt Boron or 7wt graphite, using a modern WF taper. On a good day, with the right conditions, I can exceed the running line. Most of the time I don't need to do that with those rods. I almost never cast the big wind resistant flies with this equipment. I suppose that because of the distance I can cast, and the fact that I have been using the double haul for so long (Larry, you still have me beat by a few years), it might qualify me as a "better caster".

My 9wt floater was an older WF taper and I just could not aerialize sufficient amounts of line with the larger flies. It is great for accurate short range cast, like bass and pike flies to close heavy cover, but I just could not see tossing poppers to Wolf Fish at any reasonable distance. LOL On the other hand, I dug out my home made medium sink shoot head and found that with the big flies I was using I could overcast past the running line, exceeding the 100 foot mark. That is why I was asking what you suggest to cast big flies.

Larry, I totally agree with you about the leader. As an engineer and Physist, I once ran the calculations and tried to identify the variables involved. What I discovered is that leader turnover is based on diameter, weight, and stiffness. Most trout flyfishers want something like the George Harvy style of leader which puts S curves into the line to reduce drift induced drag. This is just opposite of what you want on big flies on still water. If the leader is dense enough, the diameter and stiffness are moot points. If the stiffness is sufficient, the diameter and weight are moot points. I have been using a fluorcarbon furled (custom made by a friend) leader that is larger in diameter, heavier in weight, and still pretty stiff (a combination of the three variables). It was frustrating to have the leader work and not the line. On my larger flies, I intend on just using a larger diameter stiff level leader in the future. I do not find tapered leaders are necessary, or even desirable, for landing big flies on still water. Of course, this is just my opinion. The key, as you mentioned, is to have a leader/line transition that does not hinge.

A local fly shop let me test cast a couple of fly lines today. I found my early 80's name brand graphite 8/9 is really more of an 8wt today. I found that some line companies make a shooting head line with a taper and a running line built in. I put on on that I wanted to try and shot the 100 foot line out with my 8" bunny fur fly on the first cast. Frankly, I was shocked, and pleased. Because of the design, I was able to slow down the line speed, open up the loop, but still get the distance I needed.

I doubt that I will ever be able to cast the 7" mega divers with a 7wt. Perhaps with a modern faster action rod I could do it, but ........ On the other hand, I can with my new 8wt line.

[dahlberg]

hey guys
Using a dozen different flies of differnt types and sizes, simply throw them as far as you can like you would a base ball.
(Recognizing fly lines, the first 30 feet or so anyway, being of somewhat standards weights varying from around a little under 100 grains to over 400 grains),
select 4 BB's, one weighing 120 grains, one 165g, another 210, and another 250g. they represent 4,6,8 and 10 weight fly lines.

Pick a fly, crazy glue and zipkick on the lightest bb. Pinch the hook between your thumb and forefinger and toss it with no line attached. Try different bb's with different flies. Throw as hard as you can. Throw it softly.

lesson is that it's all about the weight of the line being heavy enough to overcome the wind resistance of the fly sufficiently to generate enough energy to carry and turn the leader over with it. It's also a fair way to illustrate what a lines limits are as far as fly size.
you can call AKA and I the mythbusters of fly baloney!
best
L

[Watchhiller]

..................................

[dahlberg]

Check out the fly fishing for pike video I did a zillion years ago for In fisherman. THere's some pretty good tutorial on casting, and I'm using a seven weight to toss huge diver flies 100+ feet.
best
L

[Dan Hanon]

Great posts, I loved reading these threads! However, I didn't get any specifics regarding wolf fish! I'm going down to Brazil next year to target large wolf fish (trairao), plus payara and a mixture of medium sized peacocks. I have a 10 wt 8'0 rod for throwing large bucktail flies to cover for peacocks, so I thought it would be appropriate for wolf fish. Question is, what types of lines do I need? Thanks for any input.

Dan

[aka anglinarcher]

There are always so many ways to do the same thing, some just don't fit the "legal/official" definition. LOL

Some years ago (30 or so) I use to fish the Provo River in Utah. It was designated as a fly fishing stretch of the river, but it was fast water, deep, and had almost no backcast room. To solve this, I and a friend put about 100' of mono on the end of a fly line as a "leader", then weighted the "leader" above the fly with split shot. We were fishing for large Browns (5 to 15 pounds) so we would ""single haul" super large streamer into the pools.

It worked well, so the State changed the laws on us and prevented us from using leaders longer then 15' and eliminated the use of weight placed on line or leader. Hey, we were C&R, give me a break.

I don't know if you would call this fly fishing but it worked. For whatever it is worth, there was no hinge because there was no transition. The mono was very thin so there was no noticed wind resistance to the system except the flies. As Lary talked about, it was in fact like gluing split shot to the fly. The mono was also stiff enough that the "running line" did not sag and create resistance on the cast.

I started this to find out what Larry used to cast these very large and difficult to cast poppers I expect he will show us for Wolf Fish. I was hopping that there was something better then the mid 90's WF taper I was trying to use. I am sure that there are a lot of different ways to do this, but what works for me so far is something that a local fly shop let me try.

Because I am tossing what many would call Salt Water Flies (for Brown Trout that are use to eating 8 to 12 inch rainbow and brown juvinells), I needed to overcome wind resistance and weight. I knew my leader was OK, but I just could not get my line to carry enough line out. I found out that most current lines are weighted a half size heavier then the rating, and my rod was a 8/9 by G Loomis from the early 80's, so I ended up with an 8 weight WF built more like a shooting head with running line built in. It is the Lee Wolf Ambush. That is solving my problems for now. The line provides sufficient weight up front (think split shot) so it carries my flies. The line is much stiffer then the old WF that I was trying to use. The running line is about the diameter of the mono I used on the Provo River 30 years ago. Perhaps the best part is that false casting is very limited. Cast to load the rod, double haul, let her fly.

Of course, when it all boils down to it, I am not Larry so I will never be able to cast like he does. I can cast better then most, not as well as some, but that is pretty much what we all are like.

Thanks all for your help.

I have my DVD ready for the Wolf Fish show. Fly fishing for Wolf Fish, that just has to be fun?

PS, Dan, for a floating line my purposes are best suited with the Lee Wulf Triangle Taper Ambush. I have also got a SA Mastery Textured Magnum taper (on clearance so I have not tried it yet). For my sinking line, I will stick to a shooting head I made up 25 years ago. I fear I may have opened Pandora's box with this thread. When it is all said and done, I suppose that the line we need will depend on our own talents.

[aka anglinarcher]

Dan Hanon wrote:
> Great posts, I loved reading these threads! However, I didn't get any
> specifics regarding wolf fish! I'm going down to Brazil next year to
> target large wolf fish (trairao), plus payara and a mixture of medium sized
> peacocks. I have a 10 wt 8'0 rod for throwing large bucktail flies to
> cover for peacocks, so I thought it would be appropriate for wolf fish.
> Question is, what types of lines do I need? Thanks for any input.
>
> Dan

Dan, I just watched the Wolf Fish show today. It was suppose to be Tarpon today and Wolf Fish on Sunday, but ..... I DVD the show so I got it.

Larry suggested a 10 wt 8.5' rod due to the tight conditions. If you have a 10 wt 8', you are even better. He also suggested a short, blunt, front taper and he said they were only casting 25' of so. I always assumed it would be like my lake conditions where the farther you are from the boat the less spooky the fish would be, so ................ If you are set-up for tossing large bucktails to cover, you should already be there.

Larry was tossing a Mega Dahlberg Diver and some flat bottomed poppers made from Alumifoam. I could not tell the size of the hooks or the type, but if you have a year before you are going there, I would test to see how big you can cast. Larry did say that the fly should be easy to cast. In fact he said if the fly was not a pleasure to cast you should throw it away. I guess that is my problem, I just can't throw away a fly that I just spent time tying - I can loose it to trees, loose it to fish, loose it to a snag, loose to a friend, but to just throw it away is more then I can do. LOL

[Dan Hanon]

AKA,

I saw today's wolf fish episode, too. Man, those boats are narrow! Was listening to Larry talking about his leader prior to hitting the water. Sounds like my set-up will work well with those short casts in cover. Thanks for your help!

Dan

[puckfisher]

Dear aka To modify an old golf addage, "You cast for show, you putt for dough". The need to throw 90 ft casts in the jungle is great for Tv but rarely necessary to be successful when targeting jungle species. Fish are generally not spooky or leader shy. Accuracy is at a premium because they are structure oriented. Side arm casts from the front of the boat underneath branches are killer but you must be accurate. Furthermore , casting large flies and heavy lines in the heat wears you down. For sink tip lines, figure how much line you can pick up comfortably (key word) with your first haul and then with your secound haul shoot to your target. You do not want large flies on any lines flying in the air any more than necessary for the sake of your shoulder and the health of your partner. A hook in the ear is painful, one near the eye and the trip is over. You will find loose line in the bottom of your boat to be a big hassle. You'll step on it and it will hang up on gear. Bring multiple fly rods because I can almost guarantee you'll break one or more(right, Larry?) and many styles of flies because oftentimes conditions vary and experimenting is fun. "tropic" formulated floating lines are a must you can try different interchangeable sink tips but I prefer to keep it simple and like Teeny"s 200 and 300 sink tips which don't hinge and are reasonably priced. You'll throw the line away after a week in the jungle but so what? Keep quiet in the boat but make some noise in the water with your rod tip, that is like a dinner bell. If your partner hangs up, get ready for multiple short "suicide" casts as the guide helps him retrieve his fly. Under a branch and over sunken logs, so what if you hang up and the strikes are explosive. I call it " poaching. "Have a blast! Puckfisher

[dahlberg]

I agree with all except the putt for dough part.
Often it's windy and the fly needed is not easy to cast. If you can throw a tight high speed loop, i.e. toss the line a mile with a "normal" fly, you will be able to handle wind and large flies much more easily!
Also, you won't need to side arm under the tree because your loop is tight enough to make it under the branches without tipping it sideways.

I spent 23 years of my life guiding fly fishermen in an environment with lots of brush, logs and leaning trees. Believe me, having the ability to cast 100 feet is a huge advantage even if your only tossing your fly fifty feet. It's got to do with accuracy and also limiting false casts.
A good caster needs none or maybe one false casts to shoot the line. A poor caster often spends more time with his line in the air than in the water, and is a greater threat to those in the boat than to the fish.

Regardless of whether you are using fly or conventional gear, all other thing's being equal, the guy with the most mechanical skill will catch the most fish.
best
L

[Dan Hanon]

I've had the opportunity to fish with some world class anglers, and it's very humbling! Their casting ability and technical skills are amazing, and they WILL catch more fish.

The difference between a well placed cast next to a submerged tree trunk or one that falls two feet short makes a HUGE difference. I fished for peacocks on the Rio Negro this January, and if you were able to cast right next to the submerged timber, your odds of getting a strike was MUCH higher than if it was two feet short! I got my butt spanked by the pro angler, but it forced me to concentrate harder and cast better!

[puckfisher]

Guys: My point regarding flyfishing in jungle conditions is for the average fisherman in a new and difficult environment. If you can throw a popper 100 ft with 1 false cast under a tree accurately, stop reading. I cannot and I can still catch a load of fish without killing myself or my partner. Double hauling is pretty much a must but moving that much line is not necessary and will beat you up in the heat and your accuracy will be compromised. I can always outcast my companion but if he can't reach the structure so what? Trying to keep the poorest caster in the front of the boat and moving the boat in a clockwise motion in lagoons (assuming right handed casters) will even up the numbers and minimize trauma. You can do a whole bunch more 40 ft. casts than 100 footers. Puckfisher

[aka anglinarcher]

Great information, great people. I am afraid my "jungle " experience did not include recreation.

I also never intended to turn any thread adversarial. This much is certain. I hope to "fish" in the jungle some day. If I do, I will have learned a lot.

Yes, I was a guide as well, at age 16, by court order. No, I won't go into that story. Some things are just better not discussed. LOL

[dahlberg]

Easy there Puck. Read my reply again. THE ABILITY TO CAST 100 FEET IS A GREAT ASSET EVEN IF YOU ARE ONLY TOSSING IT 50 FEET.

It means if you learn to cast properly, you can cast a long ways. Which means you will be able to 50 feet with no effort, the wind will not bother you, and you will be accurate and be able to get under limbs.
It also means you have to throw a tight, high speed, controlled loop which is of course the key to fly casting. I've had this discussion many time before, and it's always invariably someone who could use a little more practice rather than a rationalization for poor technique.

All angling, whether for 10 inch trout or 1000 pound marlin consists of three elements: Mechanics, Tactics and Strategy. Without good mechanics, which is the only thing you have total control over in angling, you will never be as successful or have as much enjoyment as you would if you hone your mechanics, in this case, casting skill.

Also, we are not casting to "structure", we are casting to "cover". In any kind of angling in fresh or saltwater, rivers, lakes or reservoirs the ability to define details of structural elements and also identify cover options an environment offers, is the main ingredient in being a consistently successful angler and developing a strategy on the body of water you select.

And AKA, I would like to hear the rest of the story!

best,

L

[puckfisher]

Yo, Larry: You've missed my point again.Telling your followers you need to throw tight loops great distances with big poppers on a wire leader ain't gonna happen. Cesare is an excellent angler but not a great flycaster. He has great fun with a flyrod and so can the average flyfisherman in the jungle.Strategy and tactics are totally under the control of an angler and just like your show today for tarpon, mechanics had very little to do with success. It was your careful choice of bait(I've never heard of a ribbon fish)and strategy(live bait vs plugs). You can't control wind, high water, dirty water, poor guiding, broken equipment,etc. Your final sentence is the most important one and I totally agree. Mechanics are great but the ability to read what nature presents you then develop a strategy and be flexible with your techniques is much more important than chucking any offering a mile. Puckfisher

[aka anglinarcher]

dahlberg wrote:

>
> And AKA, I would like to hear the rest of the story!
>
> best,
>
> L

Not on an open forum. LOL

[dahlberg]

"Telling your followers you need to throw tight loops great distances with big poppers on a wire leader ain't gonna happen."

If you can show me anywhere I told anyone they NEEDED to do what you imply in the above sentence I will continue the discussion.
If you re read, you will see where I said it is helpful.
I totally stand by every detail and every sentence.
This was Cesare first flyfishing attempt, and I think he is catching on quickly, especially given the fact we were tossing tough to toss flies.

Glad you enjoyed the Trinidad show. But again, I have to disagree with you about the mechanics not having much of a role.

The way the ribbons are rigged, which involves a bridle rather than hooking thru eyeballs or nose is very important.
Having the ability to pull like hell with high efficiency is also a mechanical thing.
Jonathan's control of the boat in a drift or when fighting the fish are also mechanics.

I will end this discussion with the following fact:
Give me an angler with super honed mechanical skills and if I put him on a boat with another angler who has the tactics and strategy figured out and he will catch fish right out of the box. Maybe even have better success than the man who put him on the fish.
Give me someone who does not have the mechanical skills and he will struggle for ever.
In my book, all of the mechanics can be taught and refined. If practiced any angler can develop those skills. The only excuse for not doing so is a lack of commitment.

The other elements take time on the water, great observation skills and a willingness to find your own path rather than follow the pack.

best
L

[puckfisher]

Larry: Now this is what a fishing forum is all about. 20 replies to one topic with differences of opinion. Thanks for "flaring your gills" at me when I disagreed with you. Fishing means so much to so many people and others just don't get it when I get up in the dark or go to jungles just to catch a fish I don't eat anyway. Your passion is contagious. More exchanges like ours will only improve this site and stimulate us to "think out of the box" when pursuing any species. Puck

[dahlberg]

Hey P
I very much appreciate your participation, communication skills and willingness to share good information. I also like your metaphors.
My intent is to grow the body of knowledge in regards to angling. I'd like to inspire people to pry their eyes away from what ever keyhole they've been glued to and explore as many of the billions the natural world offers in the time allowed here on earth. A keyhole provides a 2D view. Each keyhole is viewed from the sum of the content (and contexts) of previously viewed keyholes retained in your internal memory.
The man who invented the box did such a good job most people no longer gave packaging a second thought.

BTW, thanks for the reply regarding steelheads on the other thread. As you may have noticed, I feel uncomfortable about naming specific places with easy public access. As you know, I used to guide and if I would have had a TV guy tell people to go fish where I was fishing I would not be very happy about it!
Plus, in angling ultimately the deepest and greatest satisfaction comes from the process and act of discovery.

best
L

[Watchhiller]

..............................

[dahlberg]

My take is that tactics and strategy are dictated by mother nature, as are all things related to the outdoors!
I think we're all agreeing, but need to define the terms more specifically.
Here are my definitions:

mechanics includes things like casting, boat control, knots,etc. Things that are totally up to you.

Strategy is based on observations attempting to identify and categorize every single detail of every possible environmental option available to the fish. It's based on all the knowledge you can gain regarding the spawning habits and typical seasonal movements of the fish you are after, spawning habitat,time and temp,available forage options, plus every detail of structure and cover and how, where, when,and if possible why the various species that occupy each use it.. It's also based on how much range and time you have!

Tactics are a combination of both mechanics and which (lure or bait, lure choices, bait choice, rigging, casting trolling anchor etc
and deciding which is the best way to cover each of the options the fish may be using within the environment you have so far identified.

It applies to all angling for all species in all places. Just like being able to create a tight, high speed loop if needed applies to all of fly fishing!

L

[aka anglinarcher]

I agree with you Larry, I think that the thread is really more of one of agreement, but we needed definitions.

I will add one thing from my perspective, equipment......

No matter what I do, I cannot take my 4 weight Cane Fly rod and cast a 100 feet. On the other hand, I cannot take my 9 weight and set a size 20 dry fly in front of a trout in 6 inches of water without even a slightest splash. No matter what I do, I cannot toss my 10 and 12 inch Muskie lures on my trout spinning rod, and conversely, I ...... ok you get the point.

You do not need the most expensive equipment to do a job right, but you still need the right tools to do the best job possible. That is what I started this thread for, and it has provided so much more then I ever expected.

Watchhiller, I think that some things are better left a mystery.......